Q. As you will see, the statement is not signed or dated.
I wonder if you could be happy to sign and date it now
if you believe that the contents and statement are true?
A. Yes
Q. It is the 2nd June today then there are other statements
that I have you is entitled referring to her name
A. Yes
Q. That is a seven-page document?
A. Yes
Q. I would be grateful if you could verify that the
contents are true to the best of your knowledge, and then
sign and date?
A. On every page?
Q. Would the panel be satisfied-----
CHAIRMEN: the final page will be fine.
All the documents which were signed and dated were
taken and accepted as evidence by the NMC.
A lot of questions were asked to her by the panel with
regards to the investigation, and some of the evidence
remained in a draft form. It was mentioned also, that it
was believed she had taken on a full-time contract with
the home.
Q. I just want to be clear about this policy document:
where is it kept and how it is it transmitted to people
working for the Trust?
A. The policy documents are all kept on the Trust
internet in the policy section under the Human
Resources Policy.
Q. And when would someone, who is working for the
Trust, be introduced to this policy?
A. There is a sort of online list of policies that some of
you must be aware of. I am not fully versed on the carer's
break policy, and whether it is one that you have to say
that you have read or whether it is just one that is listed
and need to be aware of. When this was discussed, it
transpired I was a not given this policy as it was not
available during that time, and I was not given a copy as
the manager informed the panel.
The discussions were made addressing the carer's break
policy, and no live policy was upheld within the
disciplinary process because there was no actual
working policy at that time.
Barrister: Questions and Answers
I just want to ask some questions by your classifications.
Now very helpfully you just answered a question
regarding the sessional contracts, with my learned friend
but can I ask you this.
Q. Where would she sign on a contractual basis, to say
that she had that sessional contract as well as the fulltime contract; would there be a contract for that?
• For the sessional shifts there is a separate kind of
appointment form that is signed the sessional contract was help prior to the career break, because
can hold full-time contract with the Trust and then
a sessional contract to do some extra shifts on top
of the career break so she would have been working on that sessional contract that already existed.
Q. So, would that be a contract for her full-time post and
a separate contract for her sessional post?
A. Yes.
Q. Okay, we have talked about documents, so just for
clarification, there is an Employment Break Policy?
A. Yes, I think that is what it is called, yes.
Q. And we have seen that at page 108, well, I think it
actually starts a bit earlier than that in the contract?
Where do you find that?
A. I think, in terms of when… That wording is possibly
not…when I was giving the statement, I was referring to
a specific policy the Trust, move it was clear---
Q. Well, you said in your statement "the trust policy on
secondary employment is quite clear…" so what policy
are you referring to?
A. I have not…because there was not a Working Times
Policy live, which again in the disciplinary
investigation, because this was at the early stages and
my understanding that the Trust policy, but then when
we completed the investigation , as the investigation
report outlines, there is not, other than the Career Break
Policy where it states an (sic)would not normally be able
to take employment somewhere else. There was another
policy where I could that it stated. So that was in the
initial statement when I had spoken to the NMC but I
was at early stages of the investigation.
Q. So the only place where you would find the policy on
secondary employment is in the Working Time Policy
(the Weaver Policy), is that correct or I am mistaken
about that?
A. I do not … off the top of my head I do not know. I
can remember in terms of whether, in the Waiver Policy,
it has in it there.
Q. Well, let us just have a look at that then, it is at page
88. That starts page 1 0f 8 at the bottom "Working Time
Policy" and that is where the director and the staff side
lead have been signed something. I presume that is for
everybody.
A. Yeah, the issue with this policy was that this policy
was not live at the point that this all took place which was why it was not acknowledged that this policy would
not have been available and was not live at that point.
Q. Right, so Ms Kearns could not have checked about
the Working Times Policy then at that point?
A. No.
Q. Where is says I am in particular page, 93 that is in
the section "The 48 Hours Working Week"?
A. Yeah that is correct. So, during the process of the
investigation, that is where it became clear that this
policy was not live, therefore, it was acknowledged,
within the investigation report and therefore, at the
disciplinary that this, although it states it in this policy it
was not live at the time therefore it was not fact.
THIS IS A TRANSCIPT FROM THE MNC WHEN
I ATTENDED
Q. Now you say she also had a contract for full-time
employment and part-time employment, is there any
mention in any of the contracts about secondary
employment, working times, that she would be directed
to or would have available to her that you are aware of?
A. No, I did. As part of the investigation, I did look at
the contracts to see whether there would be anything,
but we did not find anything, which is why it was
obviously not the…
Q. Right. Perhaps we can just have a look at that
contract on page 76… so this is the "Terms and
Conditions of employment". Now is not signed or date
and this a copy.
Regarding issues relating work:
Q. There is a member of that Ms Kearns was having
some issues with and her name was not mentioned
directly and was asked if he was aware of this?
A. I was aware of there was having some issues sort of
equally from both sides but not that that in anywhere
linked to the career break or that there had been sort of
current issues that time but there had previously been
difficulties which had addressed in relation to both of
them and equally sort on both sides it was difficult,
Q. It is correct, is it not there was some questions over
whether you were the appropriate person to investigate
this case, given that you were this this member of staff
line manager?
A. Yeah that is correct.
Q You agree with that as we can that page 24 that is the
report .You see there at the top, " it felt like the BK and
SA that is (sic) was appropriate that MD investigate this
case on grounds that MD was the line manager…. And
would not be impartial. "However, it appears like you
did continue to investigate.
A. Yes that decision was not made by me. That decision
was made elsewhere.
Q. No, yes, I can see that. And just for clarification at page
68 which is the interview with Ms Kearns we can see that
she actually mentioned, in June---and I am looking at
particularly at page 70 now the very top of page 70 where
Ms Kearns said "I love my job in T/H. There have been
pockets of lots of issues between me and … name not
given . You that is MD" that is … was aware of some
things. It was not done in a nice way. I felt this is why I
asked for career break. I came and asked for a career
break at the end of November / December time ". Then
you said later down the page half down. I understand
there were difficulties, but name not given So there was
some admission then that the reason was that she was
feeling in her words picked on and you were aware that
there were difficulties between them.?
A. Yes
Q. We know and Ms Kearns admits it, some issues
…sorry that she did ask for as for a career break
because her partner in being up in Manchester having
been unwell and had been aware of that had you?
A. I had been aware sort of several years earlier that her
partner had been unwell and obviously, at the time of
career break it became--- I was then aware that again he
was unw okay .Now it is correct, is it not following all the
investigations and disciplinary Ms Kearns is now
working back at the Trust? T/H.
A. Yes at T/H but my understanding is Blessed has not been
back into work since the disciplinary but some reasons.
Q. so, she told you the nature of the health condition?
A. We did not go into lots of detail but just that he was
unwell having sort of further tests and needed—she
needed to be with him to support him at that time.
Q. Thank you. I relation to working back-to-back shift,
is that acceptable?
A. No guess would never roster somebody to work that.
We would never expect somebody to work that we
would never allow somebody to work that. But there is
not anywhere stated that not working time policy neither
at the time and there neither stated whereby that's not
allowed so it was only on the reasonable ness which is
why was only partially up held.
Q you are answering a wrong question to the one I asked a
A. sorry
Q. I think you have you have your management hat on,
and I am asking is working back-to-back shifts
acceptable? I am asking the "Working times Policy", I
am asking you.